| # | User | Message | Date |
| 2675 | Kaj | Yes, Haiku's VESA driver is known to be fast. It could be interesting to port it to Syllable | Sun 0:15 |
| 2674 | Evgeniy Philippov | Processors will evolve to provide a fast zero-copy read-only safe access to kernel's memory for usermode processes. | 27-Jan 13:43 |
| 2673 | Evgeniy Philippov | but microkernels are unavoidable. everything will have them with time. | 27-Jan 13:40 |
| 2672 | Evgeniy Philippov | self-healing is one important property to study; yes. | 27-Jan 13:40 |
| 2671 | TomBon | microkernel architecture and selfhealing. perhaps the real hurd? ;-) | 27-Jan 13:39 |
| 2670 | Evgeniy Philippov | RTOS are also interesing for the abovementioned intent but currently are way above my head. | 27-Jan 13:39 |
| 2669 | Evgeniy Philippov | My preference are fast FOSS desktop OSes. | 27-Jan 13:38 |
| 2668 | Henrik | plan9front is the name, sorry | 27-Jan 13:37 |
| 2667 | Evgeniy Philippov | Minix3. wikipedia: "The main uses of the operating system are envisaged to be embedded systems and education, such as universities or the OLPC XO-1 laptop.[3]" --- not very intreresting goals for me. | 27-Jan 13:37 |
| 2666 | Henrik | I think Plan9 is now forked into Front9. | 27-Jan 13:36 |
| 2665 | Evgeniy Philippov | Plan9 is interesting. | 27-Jan 13:28 |
| 2664 | Evgeniy Philippov | looked at inferno OS. All is bytecode-compiled, therefore rubbish. | 27-Jan 13:27 |
| 2663 | Evgeniy Philippov | not yet. at my plans there's plan9 and inferno, too | 27-Jan 13:23 |
| 2662 | TomBon | evgeniy, have you looked to minix3 too? | 27-Jan 13:21 |
| 2661 | Evgeniy Philippov | Haiku is fast in VESA mode, Syllable is extemely slow re: windows dragging with mouse in vesa mode. | 27-Jan 12:50 |
| 2660 | Evgeniy Philippov | I've tested Haiku. 1) It does not have pppoe out of the box, and afair on its forums there is an unfulfilled request for pppoe. 2) Haiku uses VESA mode on my machine, supports more modes than Syllable, and is MUCH MUCH faster re: windows dragging with mouse than Syllable. Haiku reports: VESA version = 3.0, capabilities 1. Haiku allows for 1280x1024x32 mode while Syllable only allows 1280x800 mode and shows a black screen in 1280x1024 mode. | 27-Jan 12:49 |
| 2659 | Evgeniy Philippov | newborn bugs --- i.e. those bugs caused by other developers. | 23-Jan 15:35 |
| 2658 | Evgeniy Philippov | I prefer to work with stable version first, to not encounter clashes with newborn bugs. If I get to anything working, I would like to merge it with the development version. So I will not currently install a development version. I have one computer with four hard drives and multiple partitions, one QEMU Syllable installation, and one native HDD Syllable installation. | 23-Jan 15:34 |
| 2657 | Kaj | We don't have a Syllable architecture diagram. It would be nice to have one, but unfortunately, I have many other priorities. However, much BeOS documentation applies to Syllable, especially the overall architecture. Haiku keeps a lot of such documentation, such as the BeBook | 23-Jan 14:41 |
| 2656 | Kaj | If you want to install a development build, you may want to wait a week. I intend to have a new one for the Syllable Conference coming weekend | 23-Jan 14:38 |
| 2655 | Kaj | The development build lacks some parts, though. Most notably cURL, so that the Webster browser doesn't work | 23-Jan 14:37 |
| 2654 | Kaj | However, if you can have multiple installations, development work is best done on the development build. The kernel headers have changed a lot, which affects the source code of system modules | 23-Jan 14:36 |
| 2653 | Kaj | If you have only one Syllable system, it's best to use the stable 0.6.6 release | 23-Jan 14:35 |
| 2652 | Evgeniy Philippov | I think I will now work with stable ones | 23-Jan 12:11 |
| 2651 | Evgeniy Philippov | That's re: network stack | 23-Jan 12:11 |
| 2650 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: What is better --- to take latest sources of Syllable, or to take stable network sources? I am hesitating | 23-Jan 12:10 |
| 2649 | Evgeniy Philippov | As in: bird view diagram. | 23-Jan 8:04 |
| 2648 | Evgeniy Philippov | Such a diagram could be published on a Syllable development site, in the About section. | 23-Jan 8:00 |
| 2647 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: could you draw a total Syllable high-level architecture overview diagram (i.e. levels and subsystems)? Is such a diagram present at Syllable docs? | 23-Jan 7:59 |
| 2646 | Evgeniy Philippov | Internal simplicity, I mean. | 23-Jan 7:57 |
| 2645 | Evgeniy Philippov | I consider the following features of Syllable as its strongest points: 1) Simplicity, and 2) having a precise target: desktop OS. Targetlessness makes a bad thing to operating systems... (Though I didn't think too much on strongest points, and I don't know much.) | 23-Jan 7:57 |
| 2644 | GrahamC | http://downloads.vmware.com/d/info/desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0#open_source Unsupported | 22-Jan 21:50 |
| 2643 | Evgeniy Philippov | I don't know. | 22-Jan 21:42 |
| 2642 | GrahamC | free to use .. | 22-Jan 21:40 |
| 2641 | GrahamC | vmware server is free is it not? | 22-Jan 21:39 |
| 2640 | Evgeniy Philippov | Now Syllable is in VESA mode at QEMU. QEMU is set to one of the two QEMU's possible graphics cards: "Cirrus Logic GD 5446 PCI VGA video card". The other (unselected) video card possible is "stdvga (stdbga/vesa)". | 22-Jan 21:19 |
| 2639 | Evgeniy Philippov | I don't have VMware, and I don't usually use pirated software (i.e. no way to run VMWare). | 22-Jan 21:12 |
| 2638 | Kaj | Does Syllable recognise your QEmu video emulation? It should on newer QEmu versions, probably as VMware graphics | 22-Jan 21:09 |
| 2637 | Kaj | Yes, when I tested several years ago, the kernel module made emulation roughly twenty times faster | 22-Jan 21:05 |
| 2636 | Evgeniy Philippov | Another guess is that LUBUNTU was 64-bit OS emulating 32-bit Syllable. The gNewSense is 32-bit. | 22-Jan 19:44 |
| 2635 | Evgeniy Philippov | *responsiveness | 22-Jan 19:35 |
| 2634 | Evgeniy Philippov | This speed is visible by mouse cursor responsivity. | 22-Jan 19:34 |
| 2633 | Evgeniy Philippov | Heh. qemu emulation of Syllable under gNewSense is 50 times faster than under latest LUBUNTU. Probably because kvm module fails to be active under LUBUNTU. | 22-Jan 19:33 |
| 2632 | Evgeniy Philippov | In the Russia, there is normally one computer per family, and in some cases a few computers per family. | 22-Jan 19:26 |
| 2631 | Kaj | So when that changes in Russia, Syllable will boom there ;-) | 22-Jan 19:26 |
| 2630 | Evgeniy Philippov | I was choosing the most cheap providers (but not the most cheap Internet connection badnwidth). | 22-Jan 19:25 |
| 2629 | Kaj | Routers you can buy separately all have PPPoE capability for a number of years | 22-Jan 19:25 |
| 2628 | Kaj | You get a sort of family box, such as a D-Link, that handles the connection method and provides a standard ethernet hub for the whole house | 22-Jan 19:24 |
| 2627 | Kaj | That situation is long gone here in the Netherlands, and surrounding countries I know of | 22-Jan 19:23 |
| 2626 | Evgeniy Philippov | An ADSL provider gave a small D-Link box, I don't know its function. And Ethernet providers didn't give any routers, just gave an end of an Ethernet cable. | 22-Jan 19:22 |
| 2625 | Kaj | Do they give you a router that you can plug into without PPPoE? | 22-Jan 19:13 |
| 2624 | Evgeniy Philippov | For a total of 3 (three) PPPoE Internet providers. | 22-Jan 19:08 |
| 2623 | Evgeniy Philippov | But I don't need CDMA anymore. | 22-Jan 19:06 |
| 2622 | Evgeniy Philippov | Here at Russia. | 22-Jan 19:06 |
| 2621 | Evgeniy Philippov | Every Internet provider I've met, including ADSL, Ethernet networks, and optical cable networks providers, use PPPoE. Except for the mobile Internet provider I had, who used CDMA 3G. | 22-Jan 19:05 |
| 2620 | Kaj | It looks like we never got the PPPoE functionality from Arno on top of PPP, not even binary. It's possible that he had a port of the Linux kernel driver for PPPoE | 22-Jan 18:59 |
| 2619 | Kaj | Judging by what Roaring Penguin says, it may be necessary to finish support for raw sockets in the network stack | 22-Jan 18:57 |
| 2618 | Kaj | It would be great. Syllable is most popular in Russia, so there still seems to be a real use case for PPPoE there | 22-Jan 18:57 |
| 2617 | Evgeniy Philippov | want to hack on pppoe drivers... yes that's an overly long story. I am not sure I'll hack to anything usable. | 22-Jan 18:55 |
| 2616 | Evgeniy Philippov | ...relocating my Syllable qemu image from Lubuntu into gNewSense. 1) Lubuntu's LXDE often ignores mouse clicks, and 2) i feel more comfortable on a wholly free sotfware, as my home PC is a hobby PC. | 22-Jan 18:54 |
| 2615 | Kaj | They have always deveoped the system on emulators, so they run better on emulators such as VirtualBox, while Syllable runs better on real hardware | 22-Jan 18:53 |
| 2614 | Kaj | Yes, in my experience, video is more often supported on Syllable. Although Haiku sometimes has better support for newer video chips | 22-Jan 18:52 |
| 2613 | Evgeniy Philippov | Also, it seems that users frequently fall into Vesa mode at Haiku OS (info from their FAQ). | 22-Jan 18:49 |
| 2612 | Evgeniy Philippov | I checked Haiku OS site. It seems that they don't have pppoe (info from 2010). | 22-Jan 12:59 |
| 2611 | Kaj | VMware and QEmu work much better | 21-Jan 16:27 |
| 2610 | Kaj | VirtualBox has always been very bad at running Syllable | 21-Jan 16:26 |
| 2609 | Evgeniy Philippov | Reported on a forum. | 21-Jan 11:54 |
| 2608 | Evgeniy Philippov | I'll try to install Sy on a virtualbox... | 21-Jan 10:44 |
| 2607 | Evgeniy Philippov | But REBOL is outstanding. | 21-Jan 9:52 |
| 2606 | Evgeniy Philippov | I have never touched Amiga OS though---never saw it. | 21-Jan 9:52 |
| 2605 | Evgeniy Philippov | This matches my large-scale expectations for a desktop environment of the future: deep integration at all aspects. | 21-Jan 9:51 |
| 2604 | Evgeniy Philippov | Very true: "[A] problem with it is that none of these competing [applications and non-integrated subsystems] choices have even matched the quality of the integrated systems that we admire." | 21-Jan 9:27 |
| 2603 | Evgeniy Philippov | /me reading au techworld article | 21-Jan 8:43 |
| 2602 | Kaj | Someone was rewriting the network stack and implementing IPv6, but he never published what he had. It's very frustrating | 15-Jan 22:46 |
| 2601 | Kaj | Me neither :-/ | 15-Jan 22:45 |
| 2600 | Evgeniy Philippov | I am currently not a specialist in TCP IP/ethernet internals... | 15-Jan 22:45 |
| 2599 | Kaj | I think raw sockets aren't implemented yet in the network stack, but some work may have been done on it | 15-Jan 22:42 |
| 2598 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj Yes it seems so. | 15-Jan 22:32 |
| 2597 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: A lot of errors. One of them is #error Unknown method to access raw Ethernet frames | 15-Jan 22:31 |
| 2596 | Kaj | We've always thought we had this PPPoE implementation, and there were supposed to be configuration instructions floating around, but I can find nothing but confusion about them. I'm starting to wonder if we ever had PPPoE. It seems more likely this is just a PPP virtual network module, without source | 15-Jan 22:27 |
| 2595 | Kaj | What error? | 15-Jan 22:24 |
| 2594 | Evgeniy Philippov | Failed to compile rp-pppoe. | 15-Jan 22:04 |
| 2593 | Kaj | I'll be away for a short time to check if we have any notes in our Syllable AltME space | 15-Jan 22:02 |
| 2592 | Kaj | "PPP support (CONFIG_PPP), the asynchronous line discipline (CONFIG_PPP_ASYNC), the driver for your serial port device and/or the PPP over Ethernet (PPPoE) protocol driver (CONGIG_PPPOE) must be compiled into the kernel or loaded as kernel modules. Udev doesn't load the ppp_generic and pppoe modules automatically. If you compiled them as modules they can be loaded by the modules bootscript if they are mentioned in /etc/sysconfig/modules file." | 15-Jan 21:58 |
| 2591 | Evgeniy Philippov | I don't know about Linux kernel module. | 15-Jan 21:58 |
| 2590 | Kaj | I vaguely remember two PPPoE implementations, and it seems you can choose between user space RP and a Linux kernel module, where pppd seems to have an emulation for the RP library using the kernel module | 15-Jan 21:57 |
| 2589 | Evgeniy Philippov | /me reboots | 15-Jan 21:56 |
| 2588 | Evgeniy Philippov | That .so file. | 15-Jan 21:56 |
| 2587 | Evgeniy Philippov | It is bundled with ppp package. | 15-Jan 21:56 |
| 2586 | Kaj | # The plugin comes from the "ppp" package # there's no need to install rp-pppoe plugin rp-pppoe.so # Replace "eth0" with your network interface name eth0 | 15-Jan 21:55 |
| 2585 | Evgeniy Philippov | Trying to compile. | 15-Jan 21:44 |
| 2584 | Evgeniy Philippov | From the RP site I mentioned: http://www.roaringpenguin.com/files/download/rp-pppoe-3.10.tar.gz GPG Signature: http://www.roaringpenguin.com/files/download/rp-pppoe-3.10.tar.gz.sig | 15-Jan 21:44 |
| 2583 | Evgeniy Philippov | Yes... | 15-Jan 21:43 |
| 2582 | Evgeniy Philippov | rp-pppoe.so plugin does not emulates RP. rp-pppoe.so plugin is *by* RP. | 15-Jan 21:43 |
| 2581 | Kaj | And the next step would be to try to compile RP | 15-Jan 21:40 |
| 2580 | Kaj | In that case, ppp_if is just the virtual network interface for PPP | 15-Jan 21:40 |
| 2579 | Kaj | Maybe it isn't in the Syllable package because that needs the Linux kernel module and it isn't ported | 15-Jan 21:40 |
| 2578 | Kaj | http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/wiki/PPP | 15-Jan 21:39 |
| 2577 | Kaj | Ah, there seems to be an rp-pppoe.so plugin that emulates RP: | 15-Jan 21:39 |
| 2576 | Kaj | Hm, the LFS example also uses RP. It's possible you can simply compile that on Syllable, but I never heard anyone did that | 15-Jan 21:36 |
| 2575 | Evgeniy Philippov | I am away rebooting. | 15-Jan 21:31 |
| 2574 | Kaj | Everything else is fully automatic. You shouldn't do anything with ppp_if | 15-Jan 21:31 |
| 2573 | Evgeniy Philippov | I'm not at Syllable as I cannot set up internet there. | 15-Jan 21:30 |
| 2572 | Evgeniy Philippov | I rebooted. | 15-Jan 21:30 |
| 2571 | Kaj | If you didn't reboot yet, it's likely that the kernel module hasn't been loaded | 15-Jan 21:30 |
| 2570 | Evgeniy Philippov | There. | 15-Jan 21:29 |
| 2569 | Evgeniy Philippov | I will reboot and try. AFAIU it's installed. | 15-Jan 21:29 |
| 2568 | Kaj | ppp_if is the kernel interface. It should be a virtual network interface. Could you check that it's installed in /system/drivers/net/if/ ? | 15-Jan 21:29 |
| 2567 | Evgeniy Philippov | I will try specifying "if" there, nevertheless. "man pppd" AFAIR says it's a privileged mode library | 15-Jan 21:28 |
| 2566 | Evgeniy Philippov | Without this "plugin" line, pppd starts to send packets right into pty (i.e. to the screen). | 15-Jan 21:26 |
| 2565 | Evgeniy Philippov | pty, pseudo tty (terminal enulator). | 15-Jan 21:26 |
| 2564 | Evgeniy Philippov | But a virtual terminal pty0 is not what we want --- we need Ethernet card instead of pty. And to specify an Ethernet card, LFS instructions use "plugin rp-pppoe.so eth0" | 15-Jan 21:25 |
| 2563 | Evgeniy Philippov | Syllable pppd complained about _pty_ having a 0 baud rate setting, which is invalid condition and pppd exits. Therefore I added a speed option. | 15-Jan 21:24 |
| 2562 | Kaj | OK, but do you need it, if LFS doesn't? | 15-Jan 21:23 |
| 2561 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: there is a way to specify speed. When you pass a natural number as an option to pppd, it considers it as a speed (baud rate) setting. | 15-Jan 21:22 |
| 2560 | Kaj | Note that there's no speed option used in the LFS instructions | 15-Jan 21:22 |
| 2559 | Kaj | Syllable doesn't! | 15-Jan 21:21 |
| 2558 | Evgeniy Philippov | Just checked it. | 15-Jan 21:21 |
| 2557 | Evgeniy Philippov | gNewSense uses rp-pppoe.so | 15-Jan 21:21 |
| 2556 | Kaj | I think you're hampered by knowledge. :-) Our Russion users who got it to work were plain users | 15-Jan 21:20 |
| 2555 | Kaj | Just checking :-) | 15-Jan 21:20 |
| 2554 | Evgeniy Philippov | ok | 15-Jan 21:20 |
| 2553 | Kaj | As far as I know, it's not RP | 15-Jan 21:19 |
| 2552 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: Of course I ran it. | 15-Jan 21:19 |
| 2551 | Kaj | It's a kernel module, not a user space library | 15-Jan 21:19 |
| 2550 | Evgeniy Philippov | Rebooting into Sy. | 15-Jan 21:19 |
| 2549 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ah. I got it. I will try to specify that "ppp/if" as a substitute for rp-pppoe.so. | 15-Jan 21:19 |
| 2548 | Kaj | Did you run the installation scriptlet? | 15-Jan 21:18 |
| 2547 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ubuntu has RP. I will now check gNewSense. | 15-Jan 21:18 |
| 2546 | Kaj | The Syllable package also has a kernel module. I would guess it's a port from the Linux module | 15-Jan 21:18 |
| 2545 | Kaj | In Linux, PPPoE support is a kernel module, separate from pppd. I don't know if that's the Roaring Penguin implementation, possibly not | 15-Jan 21:17 |
| 2544 | Evgeniy Philippov | Linux docs from 2006 still mention rp-pppoe.so which is hosted at http://www.roaringpenguin.com/products/pppoe | 15-Jan 21:17 |
| 2543 | Kaj | Yes, we need many re-ports, unfortunately. We've always tried to centralise development as much as possible, but there's still much chaos in a volunteer project | 15-Jan 21:16 |
| 2542 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ahh. Google has options for date range. | 15-Jan 21:12 |
| 2541 | Evgeniy Philippov | This seems to be a query: pppd 2007 manuals | 15-Jan 21:11 |
| 2540 | Evgeniy Philippov | Hmm. How one could find it... Hmm hmm hmm but anyway ultimately pppd/pppoe should be re-ported for Syllable, with full source code. | 15-Jan 21:09 |
| 2539 | Kaj | If you look for documentation of a version around five years old, it should match this version | 15-Jan 21:07 |
| 2538 | Kaj | No, this was ported by our German star programmer | 15-Jan 21:07 |
| 2537 | Evgeniy Philippov | Invisibly. | 15-Jan 21:07 |
| 2536 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: Maybe those Russians ported something. | 15-Jan 21:06 |
| 2535 | Kaj | http://ppp.samba.org | 15-Jan 21:06 |
| 2534 | Kaj | Here's the site for pppd: | 15-Jan 21:06 |
| 2533 | Kaj | All I know is that this is enough for PPPoE | 15-Jan 21:06 |
| 2532 | Evgeniy Philippov | "rp-pppoe.so" is a separate file missing from ppp-beta1.zip. | 15-Jan 21:04 |
| 2531 | Evgeniy Philippov | and rp-pppoe must be ported. | 15-Jan 21:04 |
| 2530 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: the main command is "plugin rp-pppoe.so eth0" | 15-Jan 21:04 |
| 2529 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ubuntu 11.04 and gNewSense 2.3 "deltah" still have drastically bad handling of PPPoE. | 15-Jan 21:03 |
| 2528 | Kaj | http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/svn/basicnet/ppp.html | 15-Jan 21:02 |
| 2527 | Kaj | Here's generic info: | 15-Jan 21:02 |
| 2526 | Evgeniy Philippov | One file specifies misc. connection parameters, and another file contains username/password pairs. | 15-Jan 21:01 |
| 2525 | Evgeniy Philippov | sure. One has to fill two config files. | 15-Jan 21:00 |
| 2524 | Kaj | Is it even necessary to set any options? | 15-Jan 21:00 |
| 2523 | Evgeniy Philippov | pppd options syntax seems to be common between many Unices, but a eth0 option is port-specific issue | 15-Jan 20:59 |
| 2522 | Kaj | Other Russians have done it in the past. :-) I have no experience with PPPoE, but the existing material should be enough | 15-Jan 20:56 |
| 2521 | Evgeniy Philippov | It seems that without docs or source code, one cannot set up PPPoE using this ppp-beta1.zip. | 15-Jan 20:55 |
| 2520 | Evgeniy Philippov | ok | 15-Jan 20:49 |
| 2519 | Kaj | Unfortunately, we never got the source code for the port, so all there is is the official source code of the PPP project. That's why it isn't included in Syllable | 15-Jan 20:33 |
| 2518 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj where can I see the source code for pppd? | 15-Jan 20:21 |
| 2517 | Kaj | It's not so much that the video specs are closed, but that the drivers haven't been updated for years. Ideally, the Nvidia driver and others should be ported again from Xorg and Linux | 15-Jan 14:33 |
| 2516 | Kaj | Nobody is using the mailing list anymore, but I'll get your patch from there | 15-Jan 14:32 |
| 2515 | Kaj | Congratulations on the fix! Very cool | 15-Jan 14:32 |
| 2514 | Evgeniy Philippov | And Syllable is painfully slow in VESA mode on my video card. Videocards with closed specs must be avoided. | 15-Jan 1:46 |
| 2513 | Evgeniy Philippov | Mouse fixed, not other bugs. | 15-Jan 0:52 |
| 2512 | Evgeniy Philippov | Fixed!!! See the patch on a developer mailing list. | 15-Jan 0:51 |
| 2511 | Evgeniy Philippov | I fetched devel. files for 0.6.6 and built ok there. I've tried to hack the obvious but did not succeed; mouse doesn't work. It is necessary to compare Linux drivers with Sy. | 14-Jan 9:25 |
| 2510 | Evgeniy Philippov | No questions there ATM. | 14-Jan 7:35 |
| 2509 | Evgeniy Philippov | Posted all bugs at one topic http://forum.syllable.org/viewtopic.php?p=7960#7960 | 14-Jan 7:35 |
| 2508 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ok; all is clear. Re-reporting relevant bugs at the forum. | 14-Jan 7:05 |
| 2507 | Kaj | Some modules have dependencies, but I think you can build the PS/2 driver on its own. After that you need to replace the one in the system with it, and then you may have to restart | 14-Jan 3:24 |
| 2506 | Kaj | Section 3.6, "Building a single system module", is what you need | 14-Jan 3:22 |
| 2505 | Kaj | The Builder README is indeed what you need for compiling, but you shouldn't build the complete system, because that's huge and very complicated | 14-Jan 3:20 |
| 2504 | Kaj | Ext2/3 is the same: read only | 14-Jan 3:17 |
| 2503 | Kaj | It could also be a problem in the interfacing between Syllable, CoreUtils and the NTFS driver. Maybe it should communicate somewhere that Unicode is wanted | 14-Jan 3:15 |
| 2502 | Kaj | ls is from GNU CoreUtils. Newer versions may have Unicode support, but we're stuck with our current version for now because newer ones require more support in Syllable | 14-Jan 3:13 |
| 2501 | Kaj | We've had to block many mail domains from the forum, though, due to spambots, including gmail.com | 14-Jan 3:10 |
| 2500 | Kaj | Our forum is the designated place for reporting bugs. Here, basically only I will see it | 14-Jan 3:10 |
| 2499 | Kaj | FAT is the preferred format for exchanging data with other systems | 14-Jan 3:08 |
| 2498 | Kaj | http://web.syllable.org/pages/about.html#Desktop | 14-Jan 3:08 |
| 2497 | Kaj | Syllable can't write to NTFS, only read from it | 14-Jan 3:07 |
| 2496 | Evgeniy Philippov | I need to insert it and recompile and run. | 14-Jan 0:11 |
| 2495 | Evgeniy Philippov | It seems there at ps2mouse.cpp init of Intellimouse is underwritten. It seems I understand which line the .cpp lacks. | 14-Jan 0:11 |
| 2494 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj, waiting for your answer to the last two questions. | 13-Jan 23:55 |
| 2493 | Evgeniy Philippov | And to run the system with a modified ps2mouse.cpp ? | 13-Jan 23:55 |
| 2492 | Evgeniy Philippov | Hmm I'm completely lost in this README (at the url above). What should I do to recompile appserver/appserver/.../ps2mouse/ps2mouse.cpp ? | 13-Jan 23:54 |
| 2491 | Evgeniy Philippov | AltME! Ate part of my text! | 13-Jan 23:51 |
| 2490 | Evgeniy Philippov | "At the time of writing, it is not possible to give a definitive instruction for building the entire Syllable base system." :((( | 13-Jan 23:50 |
| 2489 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ahh. "3.9 Building the Syllable base system" at http://syllable.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/syllable/syllable/system/apps/utils/Builder/README : "At the time of writing, it is not possible to give a definitive instruction for building the entire Syllable base system." :((( | 13-Jan 23:50 |
| 2488 | Evgeniy Philippov | With a hope that build instructions will be there... | 13-Jan 23:42 |
| 2487 | Evgeniy Philippov | I'll fetch and install.sh a development build. | 13-Jan 23:33 |
| 2486 | Evgeniy Philippov | Hmm. At http://development.syllable.org/documentation/drivers/index.html there's no build instructions... | 13-Jan 23:28 |
| 2485 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ah found a doc. | 13-Jan 23:27 |
| 2484 | Evgeniy Philippov | I need to build my own hacked source tree | 13-Jan 23:26 |
| 2483 | Evgeniy Philippov | Ahh very simple... build install Syllable. But that will fetch Syllable from a remote cvs, no? | 13-Jan 23:22 |
| 2482 | Evgeniy Philippov | Searching for instructions to build sources tree. | 13-Jan 23:11 |
| 2481 | Evgeniy Philippov | It may seem that I've found a sources glitch with my mouse. A kernel log reports "IMPS2 mouse found" which means that appserver/appserver/ps2mouse/ps2mouse.cpp detected an Intellimouse PS/2 mouse. Maybe developers had no Intellimouse to test stuff, therefore there's no code setting up the mouse for that clause. I.e. it gets detected, but there's no special init (which must be there), only the message is printed and the mouse protocol is not switched (it must be switched, I guess). | 13-Jan 23:10 |
| 2480 | Evgeniy Philippov | no stack traces this time, and no relevant messages found. | 13-Jan 22:13 |
| 2479 | Evgeniy Philippov | Also got a Permission denied (13) while attempt to copy a kernel log file to ext3 partttion. Under root. | 13-Jan 22:12 |
| 2478 | Evgeniy Philippov | These subsequent failures also related to ntfs_clear_inode called from ntfs_write_inode. | 13-Jan 22:11 |
| 2477 | Evgeniy Philippov | mc reports Permission denied (13). /var/log/kernel reports assertion failure in ntfs_clear_inode under ntfs_write_inode : kfree of memory that was not kmalloc-ed. And subsequent failures in a form of stack traces. | 13-Jan 22:10 |
| 2476 | Evgeniy Philippov | Seems to be bug in ls. | 13-Jan 21:41 |
| 2475 | Evgeniy Philippov | Also, bug: "cd ~/ntfs_partition_mounted/<TAB><TAB>" displays Cyrillic letters of file names OK (as a list), but "ls <the same folder>" gives ????????? instead of cyrillic letters. | 13-Jan 21:40 |
| 2474 | Evgeniy Philippov | Into several topics at that 4 forum. | 13-Jan 21:36 |
| 2473 | Evgeniy Philippov | I could move all these bug reports into a topic. | 13-Jan 21:35 |
| 2472 | Evgeniy Philippov | To mount ntfs, I used "mount /dev/disk/ata/hda/1 ~/media/m1/ -w" and the fs became readable and dirs were searchable | 13-Jan 21:15 |
| 2471 | Evgeniy Philippov | BTW where's the best place to report those bugs: on http://forum.syllable.org/viewforum.php?f=4 or here? | 13-Jan 21:13 |
| 2470 | Evgeniy Philippov | I.e. explaingin why it was denied. | 13-Jan 21:03 |
| 2469 | Evgeniy Philippov | -d | 13-Jan 21:02 |
| 2468 | Evgeniy Philippov | Though that message is probably reported by a file system driver, it could have a variant with more elavorated messages (i.e. more bloated driver). | 13-Jan 21:02 |
| 2467 | Evgeniy Philippov | I will unpack mc with a hope it gives a more elaborate message. | 13-Jan 21:01 |
| 2466 | Evgeniy Philippov | Installable on demand or by will. | 13-Jan 20:59 |
| 2465 | Evgeniy Philippov | It would be interesting to have more elaborate -vv mode at some variant of a cp command... | 13-Jan 20:58 |
| 2464 | Evgeniy Philippov | And I was under root | 13-Jan 20:57 |
| 2463 | Evgeniy Philippov | I mean file1 file2 | 13-Jan 20:57 |
| 2462 | Evgeniy Philippov | I did a "cp -v file file" | 13-Jan 20:56 |
| 2461 | Evgeniy Philippov | ntfs "Permission denied" (cp command gave this msg) | 13-Jan 20:54 |
| 2460 | Kaj | How is your external file system formatted? Did you get an error message? | 13-Jan 13:36 |
| 2459 | Kaj | Thanks. :-) It would be a lot faster still if your video card were supported | 13-Jan 13:35 |
| 2458 | Evgeniy Philippov | It detects a PS2 AUX (mouse) port but fails to do smthings with a PS2 mouse a number of times. | 13-Jan 9:21 |
| 2457 | Evgeniy Philippov | Was unable to copy kernel log to external filesystem mounted in rw mode. | 13-Jan 9:19 |
| 2456 | Evgeniy Philippov | Fetching all the development stuff and the desktop 0.6.6 source code... My MMV. | 13-Jan 7:06 |
| 2455 | Evgeniy Philippov | A2 Aka Native Bluebottle | 13-Jan 6:33 |
| 2454 | Evgeniy Philippov | I had like 800x600 mode at Syllable vesa. | 13-Jan 6:32 |
| 2453 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: BTW Congratulations on achieving a fast GUI at the OS! Even Oberon/A2 GUI is slower---though A2 uses bigger screen resolution. | 13-Jan 6:32 |
| 2452 | Kaj | Topaz could also run on both | 13-Jan 4:19 |
| 2451 | Kaj | I produced Syllable Server to run R2 (and World) | 13-Jan 4:18 |
| 2450 | Kaj | And Boron, ORCA and Red-produced executables | 13-Jan 4:17 |
| 2449 | Kaj | No, only R3/Core | 13-Jan 4:16 |
| 2448 | PeterWood | Does REBOL/View run on Syllable desktop? | 13-Jan 4:09 |
| 2447 | Kaj | The Syllable source code is in the section Source Code | 13-Jan 3:41 |
| 2446 | Evgeniy Philippov | OK. I left. Turning off the screen :) | 13-Jan 3:40 |
| 2445 | Kaj | "How to Start Developing" | 13-Jan 3:39 |
| 2444 | Kaj | http://development.syllable.org/main.html | 13-Jan 3:39 |
| 2443 | Kaj | Yes | 13-Jan 3:39 |
| 2442 | Evgeniy Philippov | BTW I think I will touch the instructions on a devel site. Is it clear how to do all of that, is there a clear link on a main site? | 13-Jan 3:38 |
| 2441 | Kaj | :-) | 13-Jan 3:37 |
| 2440 | Evgeniy Philippov | Having a pppoe seems to raise my spirit for Syllable! | 13-Jan 3:33 |
| 2439 | Evgeniy Philippov | Or maybe I will try to hack. I will decide later, now I must leave. | 13-Jan 3:32 |
| 2438 | Evgeniy Philippov | OK | 13-Jan 3:31 |
| 2437 | Kaj | That's the only way to debug | 13-Jan 3:31 |
| 2436 | Evgeniy Philippov | My OS of choice is however BlueBottle (bluebottle.ethz.ch) so I'd prefer to devote time to it. So that's a matter of time investments. E.g. I would not try hacking sources of Syllable... | 13-Jan 3:31 |
| 2435 | Kaj | You'd have to follow the instructions on our development site to set up your Syllable installation for compiling software, then download the Syllable source code and start hacking the PS/2 mouse driver | 13-Jan 3:30 |
| 2434 | Kaj | Yes, there's not much I can do to debug remotely on your system, except giving some advice | 13-Jan 3:28 |
| 2433 | Evgeniy Philippov | Or you mean debug that on my own? | 13-Jan 3:28 |
| 2432 | Evgeniy Philippov | I'd like to debug. Though now I need to leave---but you can ask questions, all levels of debugging are OK. | 13-Jan 3:27 |
| 2431 | Kaj | Sorry, there's not much else to do than trying another mouse, unless you would want to debug and fix the problem in Syllable | 13-Jan 3:26 |
| 2430 | Evgeniy Philippov | Kaj: I only have one working mouse device. The other mouse I have is Sony VAIO Wireless mouse which is connected via VAIO's RF radio receiver, I have no such card in my PC. | 13-Jan 3:25 |
| 2429 | Kaj | http://ru.syllable.org/Syllable/downloads.html | 13-Jan 3:24 |
| 2428 | Kaj | http://web.syllable.org/Syllable/downloads.html | 13-Jan 3:24 |
| 2427 | Kaj | There's an experimental PPPoE implementation in the miscellaneous downloads: | 13-Jan 3:24 |
| 2426 | Kaj | Keyboard navigation is indeed not fully implemented, so it would be hard without a mouse | 13-Jan 3:21 |
| 2425 | Kaj | It's not often that a PS/2 mouse doesn't work. Do you have another mouse you can try, maybe a USB mouse? | 13-Jan 3:20 |
| 2424 | Evgeniy Philippov | I'm experienced software (and asm) developer, so you can use my skills at diagnosing problems at my local installation :) | 13-Jan 3:07 |
| 2423 | Evgeniy Philippov | I would prefer Syllable over Windows and *nix since Windows and X are painfully slow :) | 13-Jan 3:00 |
| 2422 | Evgeniy Philippov | Does Syllable have pppoe? | 13-Jan 2:59 |
| 2421 | Evgeniy Philippov | I will also need a pppoe protocol impl. Though I will soon change an ISP and will probably have different IP-related protocols. | 13-Jan 2:59 |
| 2420 | Evgeniy Philippov | It didn't find mouse. Too many typos from my side. | 13-Jan 2:49 |
| 2419 | Evgeniy Philippov | It didn't understand my nvidia card, I mean. | 13-Jan 2:49 |
| 2418 | Evgeniy Philippov | I've installed Syllable Desktop 0.6.6. Didn't run my nvidia card so I switched to vesa mode. I didn't find my PS/2 Defender mouse, and navigation over GUI elements is degraded when only keyboard is used (underimplemented)? I can provide any details about my hardware. The primary problem at question is a mouse. | 13-Jan 2:48 |
| 2417 | Dockimbel | Thanks. | 11-Jan 1:20 |
| 2416 | Kaj | It's seldomly used, though | 11-Jan 1:16 |
| 2415 | Kaj | irc://irc.freenode.net/#syllable | 11-Jan 1:16 |
| 2414 | Kaj | From our site: | 11-Jan 1:15 |
| 2413 | Dockimbel | I have been asked if an IRC channel existed for Syllable somewhere? If not, opening one on freenode could be a good idea? | 10-Jan 18:49 |
| 2412 | Kaj | I'll have to do something about it, but I'm too busy | 26-Dec 2:52 |
| 2411 | Kaj | Yes, unfortunately, Lulu has stopped making CDs, and simply removed all CD projects | 26-Dec 2:51 |
| 2410 | nve | Link to "Buy the premium CD" is broken : http://www.lulu.com/syllable -> 404 | 26-Dec 0:59 |
| 2409 | Kaj | Thanks! | 2-Sep 21:51 |
| 2408 | james_nak | Kaj, that was an excellent article on Syllable. Thanks Alan for posting it. | 2-Sep 21:50 |
| 2407 | Alan | http://www.techworld.com.au/article/398892/developer_q_syllable_os/ | 1-Sep 17:40 |
| 2406 | Kaj | However, if you can get VMware or a recent QEmu, Syllable has a video driver for it that makes a big difference | 31-Aug 1:45 |
| 2405 | Kaj | VB was always very slow and buggy for us, but some people say Syllable runs OK in it. In any case, emulators slow down systems tremendously. Some alternative systems such as Haiku are optimised for emulators, but we have always optimised for real hardware. Emulators claim to emulate real hardware, so we consider it their problem to run Syllable acceptably | 31-Aug 1:39 |
| 2404 | Kaj | Congratulations. Anything specific you needed to do? | 31-Aug 1:37 |
| 2403 | onetom | Okay, Syllable 0.6.6 runs in VirtualBox 4.1.2 but very slow on a 2.26GHz Core2Duo Mac given 128MB RAM to it :/ | 31-Aug 0:49 |
| 2402 | Kaj | Onetom, Henrik had Syllable working on VirtualBox in January here above. Other people have reported failure with some VirtualBox and VMware versions. You have to follow the right procedure, and then it still depends on emulator versions | 30-Aug 21:28 |
| 2401 | Kaj | Ah, I must have forgotten about that. Is the emulator based on an x86 version? | 30-Aug 21:21 |
| 2400 | Andreas | (But of course, the few available webOS devices are all ARM-based.) | 30-Aug 21:12 |
| 2399 | Andreas | (http://www.osnews.com/story/23309/webOS_Boots_Runs_on_PC_Hardware_Without_Modifications/) | 30-Aug 20:56 |
| 2398 | Kaj | WebOS is quite similar to Syllable Server, though | 30-Aug 20:39 |
| 2397 | Kaj | As far as I know, WebOS is ARM only, so Syllable doesn't currently run on those devices | 30-Aug 20:39 |
| 2396 | Kaj | Didn't we discuss that before? | 30-Aug 20:35 |
| 2395 | onetom | btw, the vmware image didnt fully boot on virtualbox 3.1.4... i got a blank black screen after the character based one and then i had a mouse cursor too, but thats it | 30-Aug 19:53 |
| 2394 | onetom | Kaj: ok, just reading the rest of the article. i wont bother with this olpc guy then, probably, unless he is really enthusiastic and willing to figure it out on it's own mostly :) | 30-Aug 19:52 |
| 2393 | onetom | oh, u meant the hp touchpad... i thought about the input device... how can someone name a tablet like this?! ... | 30-Aug 19:24 |
| 2392 | GrahamC | Apparently the webos has not been optimized yet to run on anything .. so perhaps a lean desktop OS might work well? | 30-Aug 19:03 |
| 2391 | onetom | 1 letter should be enough for that, no need for a full syllable... :) | 30-Aug 19:00 |
| 2390 | GrahamC | Syllable on a touchpad ? | 30-Aug 18:57 |
| 2389 | onetom | so i think he might be happy to try it and would need just a little of your resources in form of a little guidance | 30-Aug 18:56 |
| 2388 | onetom | Martin BŠhr | 30-Aug 18:55 |
| 2387 | onetom | he is one of the core devs of http://www.foresightlinux.org/ | 30-Aug 18:54 |
| 2386 | onetom | I met a guy in singapore who has one. i think he is back to germany. he is very passionate about it; maybe he would play around with it | 30-Aug 18:54 |
| 2385 | Kaj | I looked into it at the time. I don't remember the details, but some hacking would probably be needed in the boot process and such | 30-Aug 18:24 |
| 2384 | Kaj | No, they're scarce. I've seen one only once. We have to use our resources very sparingly, so we focus on the mainstream | 30-Aug 18:21 |
| 2383 | onetom | machine | 30-Aug 16:12 |
| 2382 | onetom | Kaj: have u ever tried syllable on an OLPC? | 30-Aug 16:11 |
| 2381 | onetom | ugh, i was just thinking about this modular approach today. have i just experienced clairvoyance?! :) "By having all those services available to all applications as sub-systems or extensions of the operating, applications can take advantage of them without having to manage external processes, or without external processes running autonomously. They then all execute within the application's context, as extensions to it." i had something very close to this in my mind a few hours ago. don't know how it appeard. i definitely didn't think about syllable. im not following it closely... | 30-Aug 15:51 |
| 2380 | Alan | you beat me by 3 minutes on that link :) | 30-Aug 15:48 |
| 2379 | Sunanda | Slashdot with Kaj: http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/08/30/0245218/A-Talk-With-Syllable-OS-Lead-Developer-Kaj-de-Vos | 30-Aug 15:43 |
| 2378 | Kaj | You saw the techniques they are using | 16-Jun 15:45 |
| 2377 | Kaj | What they did succeed in, unfortunately, was scaring many people away, who were often already unable to make up their mind between all the alternative systems | 16-Jun 15:45 |
| 2376 | Kaj | They're basically mad at themselves for failing, but some of them are unable to see that | 16-Jun 15:43 |