| # | User | Message | Date |
| 757 | Kaj | I've upgraded Boron on http://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl to the latest 0.2.3 | 26-Dec 6:13 |
| 756 | Endo | Hi, I can setup mediawiki (or any other) on my web site: http://www.moldibi.com which is up for 7-8 years. Its hosted on hostgator. I have unlimited storage / MySQL DB / bandwidth etc. But I only have 1 domain name. If it is ok I can create any number of subdomains like world.moldibi.com or red.moldibi.com and give you a FTP account if necessary. | 16-Dec 8:15 |
| 755 | GiuseppeC | Hi, I am interested into building an maintaining documentation for those programming languages based on REBOL. It would be nice to have a DOCBASE for them. What I search is: - Someone ABLE to SETUP the Linux and the Wiki Software - Someone which would share with me the cost of hosting. Do you like the idea ? Write me at giuseppe@chillemi.eu | 15-Dec 16:25 |
| 754 | Gabriele | Brian, your "see the source" fear is silly. Sure, there's a lot of copyright terror in the USA, but the idea that the authors of Boron would sue you because you wrote similar code elsewere is ridiculous. Also, copyright covers verbatim text, not ideas. You can use what you learn in any way you wish, this is not about patents. | 12-Dec 10:40 |
| 753 | PeterWood | Brian, you could always ask Karl for permission to look at the sources and not have you own worked "tainted" by doing so. Of course, he may say no. On the other hand, there is no harm in asking. | 12-Dec 0:00 |
| 752 | Kaj | Looking at the R2 mezzanines has already tainted you, and the fact that you can see the source of the R3 host kit doesn't mean that it's open source - it isn't | 11-Dec 14:33 |
| 751 | BrianH | I don't have access to the r3lib source either for the same reason. | 11-Dec 14:23 |
| 750 | BrianH | Nope, but I wrote most of the R3 mezzanines and all of the recent changes to the R2 ones, and my contributions were either MIT licensed or contributed under the condition that they be open sourced under a permissive license - no copyright transfer agreed to. And the host code is in the open portion of R3 - I haven't seen any closed source. | 11-Dec 14:22 |
| 749 | Kaj | I never saw the REBOL mezzanines be declared PD, either | 11-Dec 14:17 |
| 748 | Kaj | The R3 host kit source will taint you more, because it's commercial | 11-Dec 14:16 |
| 747 | BrianH | Like REBOL without the source function or hostkit source, but basically yes. | 11-Dec 14:12 |
| 746 | Kaj | Right, exactly like REBOL, for your personal goals | 11-Dec 14:11 |
| 745 | BrianH | OK, so I could use Boron as a black box if necessary - good to know :) | 11-Dec 14:08 |
| 744 | Kaj | As far as I know that's also LGPL | 11-Dec 14:07 |
| 743 | BrianH | Does Boron have mezzanine code? Is it licensed differently? | 11-Dec 14:06 |
| 742 | Kaj | I suppose you could link statically, but you don't want that if you don't want to be LGPL compatible. Although you could do it if you distribute your object files for relinking | 11-Dec 14:04 |
| 741 | BrianH | The library is always linked dynamically, as with R3 hostkit apps? | 11-Dec 14:02 |
| 740 | Kaj | Quite like R3 | 11-Dec 14:02 |
| 739 | Kaj | Boron is a library, so encapping would be writing your own host for it, so the LGPL library stays separate | 11-Dec 14:00 |
| 738 | Kaj | Obvious: convince Karl | 11-Dec 13:58 |
| 737 | BrianH | Keep in mind that something like encapping is the closest that REBOL has to linking. Is there something like encapping for Boron? | 11-Dec 13:52 |
| 736 | BrianH | What would it take to change the license or Boron from LGPL (which has linking restrictions) to Classpath (which doesn't)? | 11-Dec 13:51 |
| 735 | Kaj | Yes, this distinction should be continued to be pushed | 11-Dec 13:49 |
| 734 | Pekr | ah, I thought boron is GPL. I reacted to MAX's "if it wasn't GPL it might already have supplanted R3 years ago." | 11-Dec 13:47 |
| 733 | BrianH | Not really. The main way that I learn a programming platform is to view the source, though on platforms where the source is not available (as for proprietary platforms like Delphi) or too complex to be of use (C++ compilers, office suites, most operating systems) then I try to go by the docs and experimentation. If I want to contribute, I need to see the source. However, if I learn anything by looking at the source, I have to be careful about how I apply that knowledge elsewhere if I might violate a license by doing so. So I use Linux, Java, OpenOffice and GCC like they are black boxes with no sources available, only because they are useful enough to be worth using without really learning from them. I wish I could contribute to Boron, but it might interfere with my ability to contribute to REBOL and Red. And I already have a good enough semi-black box in R3. | 11-Dec 13:44 |
| 732 | Kaj | You're contradicting yourself | 11-Dec 13:12 |
| 731 | BrianH | Sorry, Peter was wondering why people in the REBOL community didn't adopt Boron. Aside from REBOL being good enough, licensing was why. I have no reason to not use a *GPL product as a black box - it's looking at the source that can be a problem. | 11-Dec 12:32 |
| 730 | Kaj | And please stop talking about GPL in this context. It has nothing to do with Boron | 11-Dec 10:22 |
| 729 | Kaj | So my claim is not fanatical, the claim that Boron is unusable is | 11-Dec 10:21 |
| 728 | Kaj | All the ones I mentioned are LGPL and GCC and Linux are even worse: GPL. So if you don't want to use Boron because it's LGPL, you can't use all that other software, either | 11-Dec 10:20 |
| 727 | Pekr | And if GPL is really like that, it is in fact denying a freedom of choice. BSD like licences are the way to go. | 11-Dec 9:13 |
| 726 | Pekr | But - if GPL means, that I am supposed to open source my commercial app, not just eventual changes I made to GPLed parts, then GPL is another fanatical crap. | 11-Dec 9:12 |
| 725 | Pekr | Kaj - why should anyone stop using any product? That's a fanatical claim. | 11-Dec 9:11 |
| 724 | Kaj | They should probably also stop using Chrome, Safari, OpenOffice, GCC, Linux and the like | 11-Dec 8:44 |
| 723 | Kaj | Agreed. People who can't come to terms with the LGPL, which is everywhere, will have to be content with REBOL and stop complaining about Boron | 11-Dec 8:42 |
| 722 | PeterWood | As the only comparable projects to boron seem to be REBOL and World (both of which are closed source),, I can't see the "not being able to look at the source" issue being a problem. I don't think that boron's licensing has anything to do with its level of popularity. | 11-Dec 8:07 |
| 721 | Maxim | note, I didn't want to start a licensing discussioh, it was just an observation based on my perspective as a "curious outsider" of the Boron project. | 11-Dec 6:26 |
| 720 | BrianH | Java's a special case: It got popular while it was proprietary, but open source people wanted to use it too but they couldn't. So they cloned Java under a Classpath license, which eventually led to Java itself being GPL'ed, which may have led to Sun dying (hard to say, but it did kill Java's value to the company). Still, it's mostly the proprietary versions of Java that are in use, and the business model is mostly based on proprietary restrictions to the use of the code. | 11-Dec 6:16 |
| 719 | BrianH | Maybe it's that you can't look at the source and then work on a comparable non-*GPL project? | 11-Dec 6:11 |
| 718 | PeterWood | Surely, it's only a possible problem if you are going to embed Boron inside your code? | 11-Dec 6:02 |
| 717 | PeterWood | I really don't understand the licensing issue about Boron. Java is GPL licensed and it doesn't stop people usng it. Boron is licensed under LGPL.. What is the impediment to adopting Boron? | 11-Dec 5:41 |
| 716 | Maxim | if it wasn't GPL it might already have supplanted R3 years ago. | 11-Dec 3:12 |
| 715 | Geomol | ! Good point, Peter! | 9-Dec 22:57 |
| 714 | PeterWood | Just a remider that boron is an fully open-source REBOL-like evaluator built-in C. It has 23 datatypes and more than 100 "native" functions. The Boron homepage is at http://urlan.sourceforge.net/boron/ | 9-Dec 22:54 |
| 713 | Kaj | He opened up all the standard open source avenues, so we are supposed to engage with him. But with few exceptions, we didn't | 24-Jun 13:49 |
| 712 | Pekr | What Graham meant is the "integation" with the Rebol community. I can't remember him much from ML, altme, web forums. But - that does not mean, his project is not usefull ... | 24-Jun 7:11 |
| 711 | PeterWood | Graham from Red - "Karl has failed to engage with the Rebol community as far as I can see." Personally, I have found Karl very approachable and responsive on the Boron MIL. | 24-Jun 6:33 |
| 710 | Kaj | Seems like it :-) | 23-Jun 15:42 |
| 709 | Pekr | well, then R3 is not a competition :-) | 23-Jun 13:48 |
| 708 | Dockimbel | A bit surprizing move, I guess that Red project is stimulating competition. :-) | 23-Jun 13:23 |
| 707 | Kaj | Boron just added an embedded assembler via LibJIT | 23-Jun 12:40 |
| 706 | Dockimbel | Thanks, I was curious to see that. Interesting first approach to an OpenGL wrapper dialect. | 1-Mar-11 11:51 |
| 705 | Kaj | http://urlan.sourceforge.net/boron/doc/UserManualGL.html | 1-Mar-11 0:44 |
| 704 | Kaj | Here's the new manual for the Boron OpenGL interface: | 1-Mar-11 0:44 |
| 703 | Henrik | sorry, I have other things to do right now. | 28-Feb-11 20:25 |
| 702 | Kaj | Any results? | 28-Feb-11 20:11 |
| 701 | Henrik | ok | 28-Feb-11 15:30 |
| 700 | Kaj | The host kit became available for OS X when Andreas solved the linking problem on OS X for Carl | 28-Feb-11 15:28 |
| 699 | Henrik | ok, I haven't tried it. | 28-Feb-11 15:28 |
| 698 | Kaj | The shared library for OS X is in the Git repository | 28-Feb-11 15:27 |
| 697 | Henrik | yes, ok | 28-Feb-11 15:27 |
| 696 | Henrik | I'm not sure if there is a hostkit version yet for OSX. Mine comes from Carl. | 28-Feb-11 15:27 |
| 695 | Kaj | If you want to run the demo, you can now do so | 28-Feb-11 15:26 |
| 694 | Kaj | Anyway, I don't have OS X, so the best thing to do is to take this up with Karl on the Boron mailing list | 28-Feb-11 15:26 |
| 693 | Kaj | The host kit version does | 28-Feb-11 15:25 |
| 692 | Henrik | R3 for OSX does not have it separated. | 28-Feb-11 15:24 |
| 691 | Kaj | How do you start the host kit version of R3, which has a separate library? | 28-Feb-11 15:23 |
| 690 | Henrik | R2 and R3 are not bundled, so when starting them, is the same as other unixes. | 28-Feb-11 15:22 |
| 689 | Kaj | Anyway, if you can start boron, you can proceed to starting the demo | 28-Feb-11 15:22 |
| 688 | Henrik | A bundle is simply a directory, which contains specific directories and has a specific icon. OSX recognizes such directories as applications. Inside are libraries, icons, images and executables of various CPU platforms. The user then sees the directory as an application, which, when double clicked, automatically runs the correct executable inside according to CPU platform. You're not supposed to go inside a bundle to start the program. | 28-Feb-11 15:22 |
| 687 | Kaj | How do you start R3 on OS X? Isn't there an app setting where you must tell OS X to start a command line program in a terminal? | 28-Feb-11 15:21 |
| 686 | Kaj | If extra code is required on OS X, then that can be expected from finished commercial apps, but Boron is a volunteer project a year old | 28-Feb-11 15:19 |
| 685 | Henrik | yes, if I go into the OSX bundle. | 28-Feb-11 15:18 |
| 684 | Kaj | I don't know how that works on OS X. I only know that it just works on other Unixy systems such as Linux and Syllable | 28-Feb-11 15:18 |
| 683 | Henrik | That's not what I mean. Application bundles must start their embedded executable, when doubleclicked or when using OPEN in the terminal. | 28-Feb-11 15:17 |
| 682 | Kaj | So do you get the Boron console when you start it from a terminal? | 28-Feb-11 15:17 |
| 681 | Kaj | Programming is exploring | 28-Feb-11 15:16 |
| 680 | Kaj | Yes, it's a console program, so must be started "manually" | 28-Feb-11 15:16 |
| 679 | Henrik | yes... I'm not sure how to do it, though. | 28-Feb-11 15:15 |
| 678 | Kaj | That would be a good piece of code to contribute to Karl :-) | 28-Feb-11 15:15 |
| 677 | Henrik | It only starts, if I go into the bundle and start the boron-gl executable manually. | 28-Feb-11 15:15 |
| 676 | Henrik | Well, if it's an application bundle, then it should start the boron-gl console, when doubleclicking it. I'm not sure what mechanism is required to start it. | 28-Feb-11 15:15 |
| 675 | Kaj | It's likely an app bundle because it includes a dynamic library | 28-Feb-11 15:14 |
| 674 | Kaj | It's a console program, so you must start it from the shell | 28-Feb-11 15:13 |
| 673 | Henrik | if I try to start it using OPEN, it just returns to console immediately | 28-Feb-11 15:13 |
| 672 | Henrik | no, it is wrapped in an application bundle. | 28-Feb-11 15:13 |
| 671 | Kaj | Are you starting it from the Terminal? | 28-Feb-11 15:13 |
| 670 | Kaj | Henrik, it looks like boron-gl is starting fairly normally, but doesn't get into the console somehow | 28-Feb-11 15:12 |
| 669 | Kaj | http://gitorious.org/boron-library/boron-library/blobs/master/networking/send-smtp.b | 9-Feb-11 22:23 |
| 668 | Kaj | Boron SMTP client: | 9-Feb-11 22:23 |
| 667 | Demitri | Nice project! | 12-Sep-10 12:22 |
| 666 | Kaj | That's through Cheyenne's CGI mode, so with standard input reading, it should also be able to handle a POST request | 8-Sep-10 21:03 |
| 665 | Kaj | http://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl/hello-Boron.b | 8-Sep-10 20:48 |
| 664 | Kaj | Here's a tiny demo of Boron generating a web page on Cheyenne: | 8-Sep-10 20:48 |
| 663 | NickA | Kaj, thanks for noting that standard input example - it is new. In June, Boron's user manual version was 0.1.2 and the windows release was 0.1.4. It's really encouraging to see work accomplished :) I donated a small amount back in June to Karl using the paypal link - if he's motivated by money to do more work, I'd support that without reservation. I don't have much time right now to explore much, but I'd love to see a continuing active open source alternative. | 8-Sep-10 15:04 |
| 662 | Andreas | i think all you should need to do for that on windows is fire up cmake gui and select the boron directory | 8-Sep-10 13:28 |
| 661 | Andreas | sqlab: you can have cmake generate a codeblocks project file for you | 8-Sep-10 13:26 |
| 660 | Kaj | By the way, not sure when it was implemented, but Boron's manual has an example for reading standard input | 8-Sep-10 12:51 |
| 659 | sqlab | Has anyone a project file for Codeblocks and Boron under Windows or some hints how to do it? | 8-Sep-10 12:45 |
| 658 | Kaj | Adding the ability to read standard input should be sufficient for POST | 30-Jun-10 13:15 |
| 657 | NickA | Yes, but I'm taking baby steps right now... | 30-Jun-10 4:35 |
| 656 | Andreas | need* | 29-Jun-10 22:46 |
| 655 | Andreas | I assume you also nead POST handling :) ? | 29-Jun-10 22:46 |
| 654 | NickA | I've been communicating with Karl about getting Boron CGI working, so I'm sticking with Boron for now :) | 29-Jun-10 22:44 |
| 653 | BrianH | too easy... | 25-Jun-10 21:39 |
| 652 | Graham | Prevx has decided Boron.exe is medium risk malware :( | 25-Jun-10 21:18 |
| 651 | Andreas | (easy enough fix: http://gitorious.org/~earl/boron/earl-boron/commit/73e33bd.diff) | 25-Jun-10 18:27 |
| 650 | Andreas | unfortunately only for the m2-based build, it seems. cmake-based build is currently broken | 25-Jun-10 18:12 |
| 649 | Kaj | Boron just got the choice between compiling COMPRESS with ZLib or BZip2 | 25-Jun-10 13:21 |
| 648 | Graham | Nick, any luck? | 25-Jun-10 6:46 |
| 647 | sqlab | I had a quick look at Boron and at second look I got the impression that it can be a real alternative, if R3 does not move faster. | 25-Jun-10 6:01 |
| 646 | NickA | Yep (and there's a devpak for the BZip2 library :) | 24-Jun-10 3:52 |
| 645 | Kaj | DevC++ is using GCC, isn't it? That should work | 24-Jun-10 3:44 |
| 644 | NickA | Cool, thanks :) I'm NOT looking forward to re-installing Visual C++. I wonder if Dev-C++ or Digital Mars would work... | 24-Jun-10 3:43 |
| 643 | Kaj | That would be M2. You can also get that included in my source package in the Syllable downloads | 24-Jun-10 3:41 |
| 642 | NickA | Look like it needs files from http://wsrebol.sourceforge.net/ - currently a 404 error. | 24-Jun-10 3:38 |
| 641 | NickA | I want to try to compile ORCA for Windows too - I tried briefly once in the past, but ran into problems and didn't have time to play with it. | 24-Jun-10 3:36 |
| 640 | Kaj | Don't mind the patch directive; that's left over from ORCA | 24-Jun-10 3:34 |
| 639 | NickA | Thanks! | 24-Jun-10 3:34 |
| 638 | Kaj | http://syllable.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/syllable/syllable/system/apps/utils/Builder/packages/Boron--current/Boron--current.recipe?view=markup | 24-Jun-10 3:32 |
| 637 | Kaj | Here's the recipe from my build system: | 24-Jun-10 3:32 |
| 636 | Kaj | Oh, it does need CMake to compile. That's the most tricky part | 24-Jun-10 3:30 |
| 635 | Kaj | ORCA only optionally depended on LibBZip2. I don't think Boron even needs that yet | 24-Jun-10 3:28 |
| 634 | Kaj | Porting it to other platforms shouldn't be hard. I just compiled it on Syllable and that was it | 24-Jun-10 3:27 |
| 633 | NickA | Right now I'm very excited to be playing with a working open source REBOL implementation in Windows :) I wonder what dependencies it has, and if it can be compiled to run on Windows Phone or any other potentially useful operating systems. Even just for simple file managment and text processing, it would be really cool to see this running somewhere where real REBOL isn't currently available. And since it's open source, there's potential to expand it's capabilities. | 24-Jun-10 3:19 |
| 632 | NickA | As it stands, Boron seems reasonably capable of processing strings and lists - I could certainly have a go at writing some useful stuff if CGI were possible. I'll send Karl an email... | 24-Jun-10 3:12 |
| 631 | Kaj | CGI is not the kind of stuff Karl does, so it may be missing. They're just small things to add, though | 24-Jun-10 3:07 |
| 630 | Kaj | I don't know about getting standard input | 24-Jun-10 3:06 |
| 629 | Kaj | Not much is needed for CGI, so I'd guess it's possible. ORCA had a getenv function to get the environment variables and so does Boron, I guess | 24-Jun-10 3:05 |
| 628 | Kaj | There has been a continuous line of development over about half a decade from ORCA via Thune (and Rune) to Boron. Boron is the newest and the only current project | 24-Jun-10 3:04 |
| 627 | NickA | Thanks :) | 24-Jun-10 3:03 |
| 626 | Kaj | Yes, it's Karl, and he has a mail address and mailing list at SourceForge | 24-Jun-10 3:02 |
| 625 | Kaj | ORCA was quite REBOL compatible. There was an intermediate project Thune that was much more Forth like and not compatible. Boron has prefix syntax again but is less compatible than ORCA | 24-Jun-10 3:01 |
| 624 | NickA | I guess it's Karl? Is there a way to contact him? | 24-Jun-10 3:01 |
| 623 | NickA | Oh - I thought it was. | 24-Jun-10 2:59 |
| 622 | Kaj | Boron is not my project | 24-Jun-10 2:59 |
| 621 | NickA | There's no 'system, let alone system/options/cgi. Is there any method for retrieving GET or POST data? I'd work agressively at implementing some useful web site applications with Boron if there was even rudimentary CGI support. | 24-Jun-10 1:58 |
| 620 | NickA | Can I use it for CGI now? | 24-Jun-10 1:27 |
| 619 | NickA | How is Boron different than ORCA? Are you working on it? | 24-Jun-10 1:04 |
| 618 | Kaj | Of course, ORCA has been able to read and write files for years, and that's what I use in Syllable. And when it can do that, or just print to standard output, you can also do CGI with it | 24-Jun-10 0:55 |
| 617 | Kaj | Nick, there's not much point in digging into the ORCA source. It's superceded by Boron | 24-Jun-10 0:53 |
| 616 | Kaj | Why? You're in luck: Boron just got ports | 24-Jun-10 0:52 |
| 615 | Pekr | Graham - you are requesting too advanced functionality? :-) | 23-Jun-10 21:56 |
| 614 | Graham | Just wondering what you can do with a clone that has no ports ... can it read and write files? Do cgi ? | 23-Jun-10 21:29 |
| 613 | BrianH | There was also a REBOL clone on .NET that some french group started, don't remember the name. | 23-Jun-10 20:40 |
| 612 | NickA | I'm sure there would be an an enormous learning curve for me, but I'm really tempted to spend some time digging into this source... | 23-Jun-10 14:23 |
| 611 | NickA | Kaj, do you have a Windows binary of Orca available? | 23-Jun-10 14:21 |
| 610 | Kaj | Graham, I'm not using Boron yet, but as you know, some of the Syllable system tools are written in ORCA. I'll port them to Boron when I get to it | 23-Jun-10 14:08 |
| 609 | Kaj | Nick, I think R# and ORCA also had Windows binaries many years ago | 23-Jun-10 14:01 |
| 608 | Kaj | Sure, we all want that, but that's quite different from anything else being crap if it doesn't match R3 to the last bit | 23-Jun-10 14:01 |
| 607 | Pekr | Such projects might be a good testbed for some new or different ideas, but I am carefull in becoming too excited about them. What is the purpose of "clone", e.g. Orca, which has something like 50% of natives available only? Other thing is the project potential - dunno why - maybe because we trusted in RT, or because our community was too small, there was not much of a progress with any clone we ever heard about. Unless that changes, I want finished R3, because that is right now the shortest path to having "new powerfull REBOL" .... | 23-Jun-10 13:41 |
| 606 | Pekr | Well, that is just one example. But guys - unless anyone shows me a complete working clone, not just some subset, it has to be regarded being a crap :-) | 23-Jun-10 13:38 |
| 605 | Davide | Nice! Boron )> t: now loop 10000000 [a: div mul sub add 11 2 3 4 5] print ["time:" sub now t] time: 0:00:04.797 R2 >> t: now/precise loop 10000000 [a: divide multiply subtract add 11 2 3 4 5] print ["time:" difference now/precise t] time: 0:00:07.594 R3 >> t: now/precise loop 10000000 [a: divide multiply subtract add 11 2 3 4 5] print ["time:" difference now/precise t] time: 0:00:07.563 | 23-Jun-10 13:15 |
| 604 | NickA | This is the fisrt open source REBOL interpreter with working downloadable Windows binaries that I've seen. I can't believe that I never found those download links before. I think that this should be promoted more! | 23-Jun-10 12:26 |
| 603 | Graham | the boron.dll is 93 kb | 23-Jun-10 2:24 |
| 602 | Graham | The boron.exe is tiny at 7.5kb ... do you have some examples of what you are using it for? | 23-Jun-10 2:23 |
| 601 | Kaj | Concerning the license, there' s no need to be alarmist. If contributors work under BSD, both R3 and Boron can use it | 21-Nov-09 23:51 |
| 600 | Kaj | Yes | 21-Nov-09 23:50 |
| 599 | Maxim | anyhow.... Boron is interesting, I hope there will be a way to bridge it and R3 at some point. | 21-Nov-09 23:50 |
| 598 | Kaj | But that' s a different subject, that touches on my CMS | 21-Nov-09 23:49 |
| 597 | Maxim | but that is not a dialect. its not valid rebol. | 21-Nov-09 23:49 |
| 596 | Kaj | Not if you do string parsing | 21-Nov-09 23:49 |
| 595 | Maxim | hehe... a dialect still has to obey the syntax rules... commas are specifically designed *out* of the language. | 21-Nov-09 23:48 |
| 594 | Kaj | I thought that' s called a dialect? :-) | 21-Nov-09 23:47 |
| 593 | BrianH | ... the horror :( ... | 21-Nov-09 23:47 |
| 592 | Maxim | he just want to protect the language so that we don't end up with things like a version of REBOL with commas everywhere... ;-) | 21-Nov-09 23:47 |
| 591 | Kaj | Maxim, yes, it would be a great surprise to me if Carl would put a bomb under the linking abilities | 21-Nov-09 23:46 |
| 590 | Maxim | so once we have the host and Carl realized that he'd waste less time giving us a bit more control, there is a chance for a bit more core->host migration still. | 21-Nov-09 23:46 |
| 589 | BrianH | Kaj, there are certain licenses that can't be chosen because of things like this. *GPL is one of these. Parts of R3 will be closed source, so licenses that reject that won't be compatible. If you have a problem with that, ask Karl to relicense Boron as Classpath. | 21-Nov-09 23:45 |
| 588 | Maxim | afaik, Carl wishes the core to be linked in any situation. There are still a few things I'd like in the core to migrate to host, but as I know Carl, factual experimentation has more weight than theoretical ideas. | 21-Nov-09 23:45 |
| 587 | Kaj | In Syllable, we are building a unified system out of open source components | 21-Nov-09 23:45 |
| 586 | Kaj | I know the philosophical underpinnings of REBOL, but we also know where they have gotten us so far | 21-Nov-09 23:44 |
| 585 | BrianH | But we'll find out for sure soon, don't worry. | 21-Nov-09 23:43 |
| 584 | Kaj | It' s up to Carl to choose a license that will either unify or divide efforts | 21-Nov-09 23:43 |
| 583 | Maxim | kaj, the main reason for the close source is to prevent as much of linux-like split as possible to the *Language*. the platform is a totally independent aspect of REBOL. | 21-Nov-09 23:43 |
| 582 | BrianH | There is no problem with replacing the closed portions of R3 with open source clones, afaik. Except license incompatibility of course. | 21-Nov-09 23:41 |
| 581 | BrianH | I say that there will be no dynamic split between the host and kernel, for practical reasons (performance drops like a stone). I don't say that you can't make a statically linked host and kernel into a dynamic library that other things can link to. | 21-Nov-09 23:41 |
| 580 | Kaj | Then why do you say there will be no dynamic library? | 21-Nov-09 23:38 |
| 579 | BrianH | The host-as-plugin-for-other-app is one of the models that R3 was designed for. That means dynamic linking. | 21-Nov-09 23:38 |
| 578 | Kaj | I always presented REBOL as our cross-platform strategy. As such, I have defended part of it being closed | 21-Nov-09 23:37 |
| 577 | Kaj | Yes, applications. By considering closed system components I am treading a very fine line. We can never make the base system dependent on closed components, for the very reasons we are discussing now | 21-Nov-09 23:36 |
| 576 | BrianH | I know that Syllable is itself an open source project, but I thought that you would allow close-source applications to run on it. Especially freely distributable ones. | 21-Nov-09 23:35 |
| 575 | BrianH | Kaj, do you realize that the entire host and kernel combination could be a shared library? That would solve your startup problems without the performance hit. Or you could split your host into platform-abstraction and platform-integration portions and then dynamically link between those parts. It's just putting the split between the host code and the kernel that doesn't make sense. | 21-Nov-09 23:33 |
| 574 | Kaj | Syllable is an open source project and was always clearly presented as such. We do that for one overriding reason only: to never get in the Atari/Amiga/RiscOS/BeOS situation again, where commercial entities destroy your platform | 21-Nov-09 23:33 |
| 573 | BrianH | We'll see. I didn't know that Syllable was open-source only - I was keeping it in mind as a platform to be supported. By hybrid-source builds, but still a planned target platform. I'm sure having Boron as a R3 kernel replacement would be possible, as long as it is license compatible. | 21-Nov-09 23:29 |
| 572 | Kaj | I will have been made to wait for half a decade for nothing | 21-Nov-09 23:23 |
| 571 | Kaj | If it turns out that more broken promises make R3 unusable for me, my only saviour will be Boron | 21-Nov-09 23:21 |
| 570 | Kaj | I' ve been trying to do the very same thing defending REBOL in all those years, for example in the Syllable project. It's very hard | 21-Nov-09 23:21 |
| 569 | Kaj | No, I have always planned on the basis of a shared library, which is standard practice and was promised | 21-Nov-09 23:20 |
| 568 | BrianH | When you consider that all of the platform-specific code is in the host, it's obvious. | 21-Nov-09 23:19 |
| 567 | Kaj | Is that official? | 21-Nov-09 23:17 |
| 566 | BrianH | A large portion of the code in R3 will be in the host code, so having a dynamic linking break there won't give you as much benefit as simply marking pages as sharable or something. | 21-Nov-09 23:14 |
| 565 | BrianH | It was originally thought that the kernel would be dynamically linked, but the performance of that was so bad that static linking was the way to go. It will still be refined in any case. | 21-Nov-09 23:12 |
| 564 | BrianH | I was just trying to figure out a way to endorse Boron and say that it is good for the REBOL community. Sorry. | 21-Nov-09 23:11 |
| 563 | Kaj | I will not get into the anti-divisive properties of the LGPL and GPL here | 21-Nov-09 23:10 |
| 562 | Kaj | I am well aware of the situation, except for the parts that we have been unable to know in all those years, such as the eventual license and software configuration | 21-Nov-09 23:09 |
| 561 | BrianH | I was just hoping that Boron would choose a permissive license instead of a divisive one. | 21-Nov-09 23:09 |
| 560 | BrianH | Do you realize that most of R3 will be open source? The static linking is just for performance. | 21-Nov-09 23:08 |
| 559 | Kaj | If the shared library is withdrawn, that' s very bad news | 21-Nov-09 23:08 |
| 558 | Kaj | This eats memory and startup and teardown time | 21-Nov-09 23:07 |
| 557 | Kaj | A little, but you get to load the entire environment over and over again for each, possibly short-lived, REBOL process you start | 21-Nov-09 23:07 |
| 556 | BrianH | Why? Dynamic-linked function calls are slower. | 21-Nov-09 23:06 |
| 555 | Kaj | That would be very bad, not just license wise, but also in terms of system performance | 21-Nov-09 23:05 |
| 554 | BrianH | The host is currently statically linked to the kernel (afaik). Most host builds will be statically linked in any case. | 21-Nov-09 23:05 |
| 553 | Kaj | There' s no problem with encapping LGPL code. You just have to deliver the object files that allow the receiver to reproduce the encapping | 21-Nov-09 23:03 |
| 552 | Kaj | The R3 host isn' t dynamically linked? In the original plan, we were promised both static and dynamic libraries | 21-Nov-09 23:02 |
| 551 | BrianH | If Boron changed to Classpath or BSD/MIT then there would be no division of labor between the Boron and REBOL communities. | 21-Nov-09 22:55 |
| 550 | Maxim | their argument will be that its rebol that is evil, cause its partially closed. but right now I don't really care.. there are a lot of nice things comming for R3. | 21-Nov-09 22:52 |
| 549 | BrianH | Too bad - Boron sounded promising. | 21-Nov-09 22:51 |
| 548 | BrianH | Extensions are compatible with LGPL, but not statically linked or bundled code. | 21-Nov-09 22:50 |
| 547 | BrianH | Legally, I mean. You can't encap (L)GPL 2 code. | 21-Nov-09 22:49 |
| 546 | BrianH | No GPL derivitive except Classpath or (L)GPL3 can be encapped, for instance. | 21-Nov-09 22:48 |
| 545 | BrianH | This is why I said that I would be OK with Boron if it wasn't divisive, like Orca. It can't use Orca's license and succeed. | 21-Nov-09 22:47 |
| 544 | BrianH | Incompatible with R3 though - the host isn't dynamically linked. | 21-Nov-09 22:45 |
| 543 | Kaj | That's compatible with BSD, GPL and many others | 21-Nov-09 22:44 |
| 542 | Kaj | LGPL | 21-Nov-09 22:44 |
| 541 | BrianH | What is the license of Boron? I've been having trouble figuring that out from the posted site. Is it BSD-compatible, to allow binary linking? | 21-Nov-09 22:38 |
| 540 | Maxim | the way I understand it is: reduce bind block context | 21-Nov-09 21:14 |
| 539 | Chris | Need an example of 'infuse... | 21-Nov-09 21:12 |
| 538 | Chris | And a few that've been truncated. Doesn't seem like a good road to go down. | 21-Nov-09 21:11 |
| 537 | Maxim | ifn ... very bad style. | 21-Nov-09 21:08 |
| 536 | Maxim | funny, those are the two thing I thought where noteworthy.. hehehe | 21-Nov-09 21:07 |
| 535 | Chris | 'ifn instead of 'unless | 21-Nov-09 21:07 |
| 534 | Maxim | I actually like that function's idea. | 21-Nov-09 21:07 |
| 533 | Chris | 'infuse sounds suspect too | 21-Nov-09 21:07 |
| 532 | Maxim | because its a specific version of 'terminate | 21-Nov-09 21:06 |
| 531 | Chris | Hmm, 'term-dir instead of 'dirize | 21-Nov-09 21:06 |
| 530 | Kaj | http://urlan.sourceforge.net/boron/doc/func_ref.html | 21-Nov-09 20:27 |
| 529 | Kaj | There's a new word reference that shows status and compatibility: | 21-Nov-09 20:27 |
| 528 | Kaj | I hope Boron is returning to the loose goal of REBOL compatibility, but as of yet some things are missing | 19-Nov-09 18:17 |
| 527 | Kaj | ORCA has the bindings and Boron was started specificaly to update them, so they should work already | 19-Nov-09 18:16 |
| 526 | Janko | interesting thing this Boron .. what are the main coceptual differences to rebol? Does it have a QT binding (it looked so)? | 19-Nov-09 18:15 |
| 525 | Kaj | It has a shared library instead of a static one, and PThreads integration | 19-Nov-09 17:30 |
| 524 | Kaj | It's not as complete as ORCA yet, but the project quality is higher | 19-Nov-09 17:29 |
| 523 | Kaj | I ported Boron to Syllable, both Syllable Desktop and Syllable Server | 19-Nov-09 17:28 |
| 522 | Kaj | My lips are sealed :-) | 17-Nov-09 20:09 |
| 521 | Pekr | Wouldn't it be good, if Boron would be eventually designed to plug-in to R3 host code? | 17-Nov-09 19:48 |
| 520 | Kaj | Boron looks like a complete ORCA reimplementation, so I changed the name of this group to reflect that | 17-Nov-09 19:41 |
| 519 | Kaj | Oh, cool! Enhancements to ORCA have been trickling in over the past few years | 17-Nov-09 15:31 |
| 518 | PeterWood | There was a message on the ORCA mailing list yesterday bu Karl Robillard annoucing a new incarnation called Boron. The Boron wiki page is at http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/urlan/wiki/BoronProject | 17-Nov-09 10:24 |
| 517 | Pekr | I think not, not for a long time ... | 17-Nov-09 9:52 |
| 516 | Robert | Is this ORCA stuff still under active development? | 17-Nov-09 9:39 |
| 515 | Izkata | It used to be. Most of the math-intensive ones had been done in Rebol, but few of the others. It skewed the language comparison to the "slow" side farther than it should have, since the summaries didn't take into account whether all the benchmarks were implemented or not. Don't know if it's changed that part now, though.. | 15-Nov-09 23:37 |
| 514 | Geomol | I don't see REBOL in there. I've only known about that benchmark a few weeks, so REBOL could have been there earlier and later removed from some reason. | 15-Nov-09 23:02 |
| 513 | Kaj | Many years ago that I looked at it, but wasn't REBOL in there with a few tests? | 15-Nov-09 18:18 |
| 512 | Geomol | Found here: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ | 15-Nov-09 17:59 |
| 511 | Geomol | I found the Computer Language Benchmark Game a few weeks ago. Could be interesting to make REBOL and ORCA versions of those benchmarks. | 15-Nov-09 17:59 |
| 510 | Kaj | I once did a few simple tests and found ORCA to be generally somewhat faster than REBOL 2 in basic processing. Both of them were at least twice as fast as Ruby | 15-Nov-09 16:59 |
| 509 | Geomol | Are there any performance comparison tests between ORCA and REBOL? | 15-Nov-09 16:32 |
| 508 | Kaj | http://www.ohloh.net/projects/Packager | 22-Jun-08 13:15 |
| 507 | Kaj | I also registered my Packager tool for Syllable, written in ORCA: | 22-Jun-08 13:15 |
| 506 | Kaj | http://www.ohloh.net/projects/ORCA | 22-Jun-08 13:12 |
| 505 | Kaj | I registered ORCA on Ohloh: | 22-Jun-08 13:11 |
| 504 | Kaj | Several small fixes and enhancements were made to ORCA over the past year, which these packages roll up | 17-Dec-07 0:25 |
| 503 | Kaj | There's a binary for Linux, and this new version is also included in Syllable, starting with Syllable Server 0.2 that I just released | 17-Dec-07 0:24 |
| 502 | Kaj | http://freshmeat.net/projects/rebol-orca/ | 17-Dec-07 0:23 |
| 501 | Kaj | I released new source and binary packages for ORCA: | 17-Dec-07 0:23 |
| 500 | Normand | As Orca is backtracking Rebol why not backtrack the name : lober a lob in tennis is to get the ball over the other player : ). It is free on Freshmeat. | 3-Dec-06 19:29 |
| 499 | Kaj | http://freshmeat.net/projects/rebol-orca/?branch_id=66431&release_id=241129 | 16-Nov-06 23:52 |
| 498 | Kaj | There were a few unreleased bug fixes for Orca and QUIT/RETURN was implemented recently, so I made a new release and put it on FreshMeat: | 16-Nov-06 23:52 |
| 497 | Kaj | I was pleased to find that none of them are showstoppers, though | 20-Oct-06 15:12 |
| 496 | Kaj | I'm working with Orca on Syllable. I've identified a number of bugs and missing features that I will work on first when I start developing Orca itself | 20-Oct-06 15:12 |
| 495 | Kaj | Lots of things are called Orca. We still need a name change | 20-Oct-06 15:11 |
| 494 | Rebolek | I'm reading Ubuntu 6.06RC release notes and here's this: ORCA Replacing the venerable Gnopernicus is the new Orca, a scriptable screenreader for the GNOME desktop. Expect some great things from this in the coming months and years. Best of all, it is written in Ubuntu's favourite language, Python. Hm, that's not OUR orca :( BTW, what is its current status? | 20-Oct-06 13:46 |
| 493 | JaimeVargas | Or I we can wait. | 21-Sep-06 2:15 |
| 492 | JaimeVargas | Diffs. I mean load the current base from the repository and generata a universal patch using the diff cmd on the two copies. Then we can check changes one by one. | 21-Sep-06 2:15 |
| 491 | JaimeVargas | You can announce to anyone you see fit. It is an open project without direct owners. | 21-Sep-06 2:14 |
| 490 | Kaj | Unfortunately, they didn't put it on the frontpage | 20-Sep-06 20:52 |
| 489 | Kaj | http://freshmeat.net/projects/rebol-orca/ | 20-Sep-06 20:51 |
| 488 | Kaj | I entered Orca onto FreshMeat: | 20-Sep-06 20:51 |
| 487 | Kaj | What diffs? I have to make changes first. :-) When I do, I'll try to do it in the Subversion repository, if that's OK with you | 20-Sep-06 20:50 |
| 486 | JaimeVargas | Kaj send me you diffs and I will post the changes. | 19-Sep-06 19:41 |
| 485 | Kaj | I'll start doing some things on the project site in the future, but I've got a lot of other stuff going on, so it will take some time until I get to it | 19-Sep-06 16:41 |
| 484 | Graham | Orca has a trac instance | 19-Sep-06 6:51 |
| 483 | Anton | Not yet, I'm just wondering if those are being tracked. | 19-Sep-06 1:35 |
| 482 | Kaj | Are you fixing bugs in Orca? :-) | 18-Sep-06 20:24 |
| 481 | Kaj | I made notes in the program itself | 18-Sep-06 20:24 |
| 480 | Anton | Have you recorded the bugs ? | 18-Sep-06 13:41 |
| 479 | Kaj | I finished rewriting the Syllable package manager tool in Orca, from C++. It's going to be in Syllable 0.6.2. I encountered some Orca bugs, but no showstoppers | 17-Sep-06 22:48 |
| 478 | Anton | Mmm.. that's an interesting point. | 19-Jul-06 16:52 |
| 477 | Kaj | Chances are that RT is obliged to take action, because you loose the right to a name if you don't defend it | 19-Jul-06 16:25 |
| 476 | Kaj | I'm not a lawyer, as they say, but I think it's a problem under trademark law. Whether it would be a problem in practice would depend on RT's reaction | 19-Jul-06 16:23 |
| 475 | Anton | I think there is not a legal problem with "OpenRebol", but I would prefer the opinion of someone like Kaj or Reichart. | 19-Jul-06 14:26 |
| 474 | Volker | Yarc? | 19-Jul-06 10:49 |
| 473 | Pekr | not sure, how those things go .... it depends, how RT has registered their trademark .... | 19-Jul-06 6:48 |
| 472 | Pekr | then call it Freebol :-) | 19-Jul-06 6:48 |
| 471 | Anton | Orca --> OpenRebol : could there be any legal issues using this name ? | 19-Jul-06 6:42 |
| 470 | Volker | the other way around works. So lgpl has more power. | 16-Jul-06 18:55 |
| 469 | Volker | GPL/LGPL gives a lot libraries, which cant be used with bsd. No bsd or no libraries. | 16-Jul-06 18:54 |
| 468 | Joe | No. Would MIT or Boost license be ok ? | 16-Jul-06 18:52 |
| 467 | Kaj | I am continuing with Orca in Syllable, and I will make improvements to Orca where I can and need them. A few other people have expressed interest in development as well | 16-Jul-06 17:57 |
| 466 | Kaj | Did you read my explanation above why a BSD license wouldn't solve all issues going forward? | 16-Jul-06 17:55 |
| 465 | Kaj | Karl is continuing with Thune, his other language of his own design. His principle is to design languages based on the same REBOL syntax, but with different semantics. So, Thune is still a lot like REBOL, but not compatible | 16-Jul-06 17:54 |
| 464 | Joe | Is anybody planning to take on Orca development ? I wanted to reply to Karl R. message in the Orca mailing list asking him for 1) move license to MIT/BSD 2) what he doesn't like about rebol that prompted him to abandon the project | 16-Jul-06 17:37 |
| 463 | Kaj | My first thought a few years ago was SWIG as well, but after looking into it, I concluded that it was more suitable to some languages than others | 16-Jul-06 16:51 |
| 462 | Kaj | Yes, I suppose there would be a big difference between compiled and interpreted languages | 16-Jul-06 16:49 |
| 461 | Anton | In rebol, it would be faster, yes. Those other compiled languages can more easily afford to map every function. | 16-Jul-06 16:48 |
| 460 | Kaj | Apart from cleaner code, it probably makes for better performance as well | 16-Jul-06 16:42 |
| 459 | Kaj | I think the best way in REBOL is, as usual, to design dialects on the abstraction level of the user, and implement them in terms of the available C libraries. This is what Orca does so far with Qt and OpenGL | 16-Jul-06 16:40 |
| 458 | Kaj | This problem can be observed in Python, which usually has one-to-one style bindings. A language like Io, for example, has bindings that were designed to fit well with its object-oriented design | 16-Jul-06 16:38 |